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Registered User
(2/12/03 2:37 pm)
Re: Jnananandaji and Atmanandaji
soul circle,

Your subject line says, "....the former Atmananda." There is nothing former about him, other than he is not in his body anymore. In India, you become a swami for a lifetime. It doesn't dissappear if you leave an ashram. In fact, most highly regarded swamis don't usually live in ashrams. They depend entirely on God, which often means they avoid fixed places of residence. Atmanandaji was asked to take over the leadership of SRF but declined the offer. He thought very highly of Rajasi after visiting here but "retired" to the company of householder devotees after SRF reorganized YSS into its own image following Rajasi's passing.

Jananandaji came to YSS in India from Switzerland in the early 1950s and has never left. He is widely respected now as a saint. Atmanandaji instructed Jnananandaji to avoid further involvement with organizations, and instead to wander in the himalayas, do intense sadhana, and enjoy the company of saints and fellow sadhus. Jnananandaji is accepting and respectful of all who come his way, be they from SRF, YSS, Ananda, or elsewhere. Many find inspiration from him and the life he has lived. He tells wonderful stories and leads great kirtan.

Most of the stories he tells involve experiences with saints he has lived with or been around. But here is one that stuck in my mind that is more of a story with a lesson. A magistrate has a case brought before him involving a dispute between two parties. The first person presents has case and the magistrate comments, "Yes, that sounds right." The other party then presents his case, and the magistrate comments, "Yes, that sounds right." The baliff then stands up and says, "Sir, you told both sides that they are right. That can't be right." And the magistrate says, "Yes, that sounds right." Are you listening, Astral 7?

Edited by: Borg108 at: 2/12/03 2:58:20 pm
Registered User
(2/12/03 7:12 pm)
Re: Temple of Kriya Yoga, Chicago

You wrote: "My reference to the superficiality of some yoga teachers had nothing to do with you or your teacher, Kriyananda."


"It particularly interested me
because I have a great interest in the classification of religion and also the underlying universality of all religions
and how they relate to one another."

AH! I'm seeing better where you are coming from. One can get the feeling that one's Guru is not quite up to snuff around here, so I thought I'd make sure I was communicating properly. Perhaps I was projecting my own suspiciousness onto you.

Kriyananda has spoken of Elijah and Elisha as Jesus and John the Baptist. It might be similar to Burkes ideas. I think the idea is intriguing but I take these kind of statements in with a grain of salt, because they have just enough of a taste of Christian Triumphalism and general religious one-up-manship that I feel it better to just look and not decide if they are true or not.

I was a devout Catholic until I was 12. I happened to turn on PBS at the very beginning of a documentary about Mengele and the other Nazi “doctors” who did experiments on Jewish children during the Shoah (that’s the Hebrew for Holocaust). It featured the actual film footage of the ‘experiments’. Naturally, my eyes were glued to the television throughout the entire brutal hour.

I had nightmares for almost a year after that. I would dream that Nazis were cutting off parts of my body. I could not believe that people could do what I had seen in that documentary, but I knew I had seen it. I’m still haunted by the images. I was a devout Catholic and planning on becoming a nun. In that year, I had an existential crisis and became an ‘agnostic’, though I didn't know the word then.

I have a hard time accepting the idea that Christianity replaced Judaism, which this reincarnation theory implies. As I've gotten older (and actually lived as an Orthodox Jew in the Chicago Lubavitch community for 7 years), I've been able to see that my first impression of Judaism, that it was an old, outdated religion that produced a "New Testament" did not 'compute' as I actually got to know the "Old Testament" religion.

My take on Christianity is that it is a form of Roman period Judaism that became different enough to break away and then developed it's own non-Jewish character. People were looking for a "Messiah" at the time, so they found one. Jesus, of course, may have been a realized soul, but I can't accept that he was the "Messiah" that the Prophets were speaking of - our weapons just aren't being made into farming equipment. My existantial breakdown as a 12 year old had a major effect on my take on the situation.

By the 200's or so, Christianity was a distinct religion with it's own potential for good and bad. Judaism, meanwhile was beginning to evolve into the Rabbinical system. I don't see them as two "stages" in an evolutionary process (i.e. Christianity is the "Cro-Magnon" to Judaisms "Neanderthal", but more as two expressions of the human quest for truth.

I’m willing to bet that some of the Christian saints from all time periods were reincarnations of Jewish prophets, and that some of the Tzadikim, the Jewish saints, from all time periods were also reincarnations of Jewish prophets. Jewish or Christian saints reincarnated as Hindus saints? Certainly. I think those prophets' souls reincarnated other areas of the world, such as in the Islamic Kingdom, Africa or some obscure island religion in Micronesia.

It is quite interesting, because according the Kabbalistic teaching, Elijah (Eliyahu, in Hebrew) is very much like a Babaji figure. He appears without warning in various time periods and helps people out, or teaches something that needs to be learned. He is believed to appear just before the Messiah arrives, and has the role of announcing his arrival.

In Kabbalah, reincarnation is called "gilgul", so the idea that Eliyahu and Elisha would reincarnate into bodies is an acceptible belief by Jewish standards, but for the traditon of Eliyahu being the messenger of the Messiah and undying - or liberated Tzadik to who travels from plane of existence to plane of existence without any barriers. Elisha was his disciple.

The Elijah is Jesus and Elisha is John the Babtist is Yogananda theory is similar, yet contradictory enough (and does that make Sri Yukteswar Jesus' reincarnation????) to make me wonder if one is the elephants trunk and the other is the elephants tail.

I'm not sure, so I look at the two theories and think: Mabe they are both right and both wrong and I simply need to higher perspective - I sure am looking forward to breathing more Kriya tonight!"

I find myself laughing alot more these days.

What brought you to read Burke? He's quite a character, I have to say. I've read some of the postings you have put up where you've mentioned him, and the little bit that I could find on the net. I like him, though I don't think I agree with him. He's gotten the ire of the conservative Orthodox Christians, which I found amusing ("..don't buy their icons, they are dangerous...!").



Edited by: etzchaim at: 2/12/03 8:09:58 pm
Registered User
(2/16/03 11:54 am)
Re: Temple of Kriya Yoga, Chicago
etzchaim, I wrote this email to one such "conservative Orthodox Christian."

"I've found your criticism of Abbot George Burke online and thought I would comment on your stabs. You say concerning the 'pictures', "All are "blessed" with one of their occult rituals before being shipped, and they support themselves to the tune of several hundred thousand dollars per year selling the demonic things." What evidence you have for this claim, them being 'domonic things'? Every other church sells icons and pictures of saints as well, what's the big deal with the Light of Christ Monestary supporting itself partially by doing the same? Are you jealous or something?

Your criticism follows the basic pattern of throwing a cheap shot -of labeling a religous group one doesn't like -a cult. How exactly dangerous are these icons? What difference is there between Jesus teachings things privately to his close disciples (as the new testament claims) in secret, and Burke teaching things in secret?
Could there not be a chance these esoteric teachings are similar or even the same? Doesn't the power of walking on water and bringing men back to life account for "occult" powers in Jesus' life? So he's a cult leader as well? So why won't you criticise Jesus, roaming around with all his disciples from town to town, performing miracles and other occult activity, preaching about God's kingdom, telling people to leave their families and friends and come follow him, for creating a dangerous cult?

Reading your critique I found an amusing statement that I am inclined to believe -that in your past life you were Diocletian, the Roman who led him to his martyrdom. Maybe this is naive but if there's reincarnation, then you and I had to be someone."

His email bounced back, possibly because it was no longer being used, I don't know why exactly. I first heard of Burke on the SRF debotee board and placed a call to the Bhodi Tree bookstore in California, and only about half a year ago read his "Eagles Flight" autobiography. From your posts I think you would benefit, or at least find some interest in, reading this book. Like you, he spent many years in religious structures that didn't suit him, and he had work hard to find his true calling -the reestablishing of Christianity in its totality. He spent his childhood as protestant, fell in love with the catholic mass, became a swami in India, and later became a member of SRF! He goes in depth about the history of Christ's teachings, the church, and how they have been tampered with to suit political aims. It is loaded with startling revelations and claims, like the autobiorgaphy of a yogi. I've bought a lot of books, including autobioraphies by Indian Swamis in the past, only to have them still sitting on my shelf collecting dust -mostly unread, but this was one I had to finish, and I enjoy reading it again, going over many highlighted points.

Regarding the apparent "contradicion," Yukteswar is said not to be a reincarnation of Jesus, but of one of the three wise men. His ideas, along with Yogananda's, seem to be consistant.

Registered User
(2/17/03 9:24 am)
Re: Temple of Kriya Yoga, Chicago

There have been many times when I've asked traditional Christians about the similarities between the miracles that Jesus performed and the siddhis that yogis have, only to be told that Jesus power came from being God and the yogis power came from the Satan. I've since given up in trying to convince people of things, though I admit that I wasn't born with a whole lot of patience.

I work with a Lutheran with whom I exchange alot of religious info, he tells me about his Christian beliefs, I tell him about my kabbalistic and yoga beliefs. When I asked him what he actually thought about what I was saying, he told me that it was the from the devil, but he preferred to keep his opinions to himself!

Still, he's very polite, and a good person. He told me once that he worried about whether I thought he was closed minded! I think he is not atypical.

The contradiction I was trying to point out was more the kabbalist's experience of being taught by Eliyahu from the Astral plane (they would call this plane either Gan Eden or Yetzirah) and sometimes in the physical plane, and also with his role as announcer of Messiah, with the Kriya teaching that I've recieved that says that Jesus was Eliyahu. Otherwise, there is a contradiction - the Jews can't be blind, rejecting, spawns of Satan, and still be learning from the soul they rejected! Perhaps it's only an organizational issue?

If the current teachings of Jesus (and I'm including the actual text of the New Testament with 'current' because I believe they would written and very specifically chosen with political agendas behind them) are corrupted, I see no issue with Eliyahu/Jesus continuing to teach mysticism to embodied Jewish mystics (as well as Christian mystics).

I'm limited to what I can get out of the University Library I work at (I've just checked out "The Holy Science") because of a difficult financial situation, unless I read the book at the store itself, which I'm uncomfortable doing.

I've looked for Burkes' books here - and also Roy Eugene Davis' books - because I'm curious about him as well, but we don't have them. We could do with fewer of Rajneeshes' books. There's an entire shelf.

I have to say that I look at scripture, including Torah, from a more Jungian/mystical perspective than a literalist perspective, so connecting current day historical figures to scripture is more symbolic to me. I've learned to rely on my personal experiences more than anything, which sometimes gets me into trouble, and sometimes extracts me from trouble, but I trust it more than anything else.

I woke up this morning thinking about the three kings following the star to the stable. It struck me that the star would be so high up in the sky, that if it was shining directly over Jerusalem, it still would not indicate exactly where the stable was. It was a full and crowded city at the time.

I thought about time frames. The census was always taken in the spring, not in Dec., but I think most people know that by now? So Jesus, assuming the story is in any way accurate, was a Pisces or an Aries, not a Capricorn, although Saturnalia was an appropriate time for the Romans to celebrate. Perhaps his real birthday is coming up in March.

I wondered what star it was supposed to be and whether it decended and hovered, or were the kings intuitive enough to walk right to the correct place? Was the star still in the sky today, or was the star internal and the three Kings were the right hand, left hand and central pillars of the Tree of Life (or, perhaps, Ida, Pingala and Sushumna?) Which one was Sri Yukteswar and did they need the Khechari mudra? Then I started singing "We Three Kings" in the punk version I'd heard on the radio this past year, somehow Kris Kristopherson became one of the kings, and then I decided to quit thinking and get up. Enough is enough, really.

You've made me quite curious about what Burke has to say, so mabe I WILL go to Borders and take a small peek.

Etz, feeling a bit puckish this morning.

Registered User
(2/17/03 11:33 am)
Re: Temple of Kriya Yoga, Chicago
devi(l) etz,

According to Yoganandaji, the star in the East refers to the spiritual eye, the kutastha chaitanya center of shambhavi mudra, which is the seat of divine light and intuition. This could surely guide one to the Christ. Abbot Burke's monastery puts out a number of interesting free booklets, including The Unknown Life of Jesus Christ by Nicholas Notovich and The Christ of India. You can request these and others by sending an email to Father Seraphim at desertmonks@earthlink.net. Shalom Aleichem.

BTW, Abbot Burke's views of SRF are very close to the the mainstream views on this board.

Edited by: Borg108 at: 2/17/03 12:06:17 pm
Registered User
(2/17/03 12:32 pm)
Re: Temple of Kriya Yoga, Chicago
Aleichem Shalom, Borg108,

"According to Yoganandaji, the star in the East refers to the spiritual eye, the kutastha chaitanya center of shambhavi mudra"

Thats about where the three wise nadi kings would go, wouldn't they?!

I don't know the term shambhavi mudra, though.

Thanks for the info on getting the pamphlets from Burkes group.

It just occured to me that it would be quite strange to reinterpret the New Testament from a kabbalistic viewpoint. It might even be grounds for excommunication!

I haven't gotten very far into The Holy Science, but I'm really enjoying the beginning. It seems, according to Sri Yukteswar, we hit the very center of the Kali Yuga at the beginning of what people have labelled the Dark Ages (499). It's as if we know, but we're not conscious of knowing. It's probably an obvious statement, but it really is like we're all dreaming and only a few people are able to understand the real meaning of our dream symbols.

I'm not sure how S.Y's system differs from others (I hear people talking about how this is still the Kali Yuga, but according to this system, we are in the ascending Dwapara Yuga) but I'm seeing it fit into history very clearly - since we're in an upward cycle, since 499, the darkest period would have been from a few centuries before to a few centuries later, so when the Rennaisance started coming in, we were beginning to grasp more subtle elements, and since the 1700's (which marks major changes in development in almost all spheres of life, science, religion, etc.) we are in a much lighter, though still relatively dark period. I guess, since we are still in the lower end, or furthest away from Brahma, the darker use of knowledge of the more subtle - I'm thinking, genocide, nuclear weapons, fascist control within societies...is to be expected, unfortunately.

Etz, brain buzzing, less puckish, but only slightly

Registered User
(3/9/03 2:17 pm)
Re: Jnananandaji and Atmanandaji...the legend lives on
Borg wrote:

"Sir, you told both sides that they are right. That can't be right." And the magistrate says, "Yes, that sounds right."

Borg, if you liked that story, read *Tales of Mulla Nashruddhin* I read that same one and others like it many, many years ago. Apparently, the Swami enjoys Nashruddhin stories, too.

Registered User
(3/9/03 5:57 pm)
Re: Jnananandaji's autobiographical book

Thanks for the reference. I'll try to find the book. PM me if you would like to be emailed a pre-publication copy of Swamiji's new autobiographical book full of stories of his spiritual quest and the saints he spent time with during his 50+ years in India. I understand that Swamiji recently gave permission to circulate it on a one to one basis to those who are really interested. I'll send it to any Walrus member who asks for it.

Registered User
(3/10/03 9:53 pm)
Re: Jnananandaji's autobiographical book

I'd be interested in reading the Swami's autobiography. I can't seem to get this ezboard private mail function to work so I'll give you an email address for me:


Thanks in advance for your kindness,


Registered User
(11/26/03 7:23 pm)
Norman Paulson
I am almost finished reading Christ Consciousnesss. I think Norman Paulson must be insane! The book is an autobiography and shows no evidence of any spiritual achievement.

It tells of him seeing and hearing UFOs and him asking his friends if they also see them AND THEY DON'T and then all his friends think he is insane.

It tells of him being arrested many times.

It tells of him not giving any money to support his son.

It tells of him being committed to a mental hospital.

It tells of him building buildings AFTER receiving money from workers compensation because of a permanent injury.

It speaks of him spending most of his time drinking, living on skid row, or in cheap hotels.

He talks about getting married a second time, and the marriage being a union between the white and red people. (Though he doesn't say what his wife's race is), but he thinks that his second marriage is SO significant that it is rejoining two races of people together. Come on, this fellow is delusional!

Is he a guru?

Registered User
(11/27/03 5:36 am)
Re: Norman Paulson

I don't think I've ever heard Norman referred to as a guru...at least not in any reading I've done, including the Solar Logos newsletter i received for sometime. I think they refer to him as a "Brother" or simply Norman.

The things in Norman's book seem....well....quite spectacular to say the least, but so does the Bible at times too. Are such claims as far out as we think?

I felt this book opened my mind to many possibilities and I loved how human Yogananda appears in this book. I especially enjoyed his thoughts on the origin of man and the contribution of "aliens". 0]

Great fodder for Art Bell and his late night conspiracy theory radio program! :rollin

To me, and I can only speak for myself, I read it as a book of hope. That Norman was a man searching for God and despite the adversity, like Job in the Bible who faced many tests, he still plowed through a lot of troubling times. God help me if I ever take up the bottle or lost my child to a divorce etc. etc. I think I would loose all ambition to continue toward the GOAL. As I recall that his "dark period" was only about a third of the book or less...but maybe it seemed like "most of his time"?

If you believe anything that Donald Walters wrote/said, in his book The Path he talks of Norman leaving SRF:

"Poor Norman! He loved God deeply, but moods of despondency came, and he allowed them to undermine his meditative routine to the point where it no longer sufficed to protect him from worldly delusions. But I knew he would always love God, and would continue to seek Him.

'This is the first time in many lives that delusion has caught Norman,' Master remarked sadly. He added, "Divine Mother wants him to learn responsibility. But wherever he is, he is with me.'"

I also found it interesting that Norman mentions in his book that when he refused to take the vow of celibacy (because he knew he had to leave SRF) that he became an immediate "outcast". So even when Yogananda was in physical form, SRF members had a "celibacy is more spiritual" thinking which still exists today.

I found the book refreshing in that finally someone directly linked to Yogananda freely admitted that they have/had faults. No hiding behind lawyers or followers...just an unvarnished "here I am...take it or leave it".

There are other direct disciples, that shall remain unnamed, that walk/talk with so much pomp and circumstance and who would never think of meeting the underlings.....but not Norman. When I called Solar Logos they said that Norman (at age 80+) tries to meet everyone that comes to the retreat. To me, and again I'm speaking for myself, I find this VERY refreshing...not to mention an element of humility all of us can use. Humility seems to coinicide with greatness.

thoughts of a "class A doofus"

Edited by: needthestar at: 11/27/03 5:41 am
Registered User
(11/27/03 4:04 pm)
Re: Norman Paulson

i liked your explanation of Paulson: "That Norman was a man searching for God and despite the adversity, like Job in the Bible who faced many tests, he still plowed through a lot of troubling times." i think that says it all. whether he has delusions or hallucinations doesn't really matter. that he loves God matters.

i once read the book about his sunburst (if i recall the name correctly) commune, and it sounded so wonderful. i was disappointed to hear that it disbanded.

Registered User
(11/27/03 6:02 pm)
Re: Norman Paulson
I've been thinking quite a lot about astral experiences and America/our culture/the West,

for a good amount of time.

Norman represents a good amount of this, because he excelled in the "astral experience" in a public way, because he wrote about it, and because he was an American. I haven't read anything he ever wrote, but reading a couple of "Yogananda" websites gives me enough information to understand the this guy had prepared himself for some very interesting astral happenings and was reaping the benefit of this ability that he'd cultivated. Most people deride him, and I'm wondering why.

I grew up in America. When I would wake up in the morning, I'd sit on my bed and go into a meditation state. My mother would come into my room and yell at me for "spacing out", and not getting ready for school. I'd feel like I was doing something "wrong". The nuns at school would dicsipline me for doing the same thing, or because I'd be going on in my mind about God or the Church, or some other thing, and I found myself guilty for believing that my dog had a soul and that God listened to everyone. I'd be accused of "contradicting the Church".

I was rased in the 60's in the Middle Class. The more developed people I know are often in "alternative" life situations. Some of this is obviously involving drinking and drugs. My great uncle George, one of nine children, in a strong, working class, Irish family, is an example that stands out. His mother died after lying down in the afternoon, after she's washed the kitchen floor on her hands and knees. She was 98. I knew him in my pre-teen years. An extremely sensitive man, he engaged me in conversation that my other reletives balked at. He talked about the politics of the time (Nixon and local stuff), about the nature outside, especially the birds that showed up every year on the land between him, my grandmothers house, and my Uncle Maurice's house, and the Church. I only thought of him as more thoughtful than the rest of my relatives. When I was older, my mother told me that she had nursed him through the "cold turkey" period from his heroin addiction in the 50's. He was a great influence on me, simply because he thought, deeply, about life, and I don't really have an issue with him having been a heroin addict. I've drunk some and smoked and snorted some, too. Heroin was passe, and shooting, for that matter.

I used to work at the "Occult Bookstore" on Clark Street in Chicago. It's moved since then, but when I was there, one of the people who hung out with the owners was this guy about my age, who'd been hanging out there since he was a kid. He came to the store right before we closed, one day, all excited. He and a couple of his friends were looking out their back door one day (yeah, I know, it sounds like a Credence Clear Water Survival song...) and started telling me and my co-worker (Marguerite) about what they saw the night before.

The whole sky, of courst I'm repeating this 2nd hand...blah blah blah,

was like a kind of organism. It was light, actually.

It gradually appeared to these three guys, in stages. I don't remember the exact way it was described to me, and I apologise, because my memory of watching his face when he described it, is priceless. To my mind, it sounded like an astral "vehicle" of some sort. It seemed much more organic than like the concept of the "UFO" that is most commonly thought, like the X-Files, et al. We were discussing it at he was relating it to me, and both of us decided that it seemed like (how's that for 'conviction'?) something apearing from one plane into another plane.

When I think about Norman, I think about the stuff in India, like blossoms turning into candy, etc., and really weird techniques, like Kechari Mudra, which he could do naturally.

Then I think about what I grew up with...being yelled at, for meditating in the morning.

Here I am in the, in the, in the, in the, WEST.

"well, there's a beginning for everything, but it has to grow and change, and no matter what I think, I really can't (fill in the blank.)"


Registered User
(11/27/03 6:49 pm)
Re: Norman Paulson
NC2 - thanks very much for your kind words...and you're right....regardless whether or not Norman's experience are "real" to me, they certainly are to him in one sense or another.

I believe Sunburst broke up in the 80's or late 70's do to a disagreement on how the organic farm should use it's income...but don't quote me on that. His new local seems very nice and I've seen video interviews with some of his brothers and sisters (I don't think the term "followers" is appropriate here) and they seem earnest for God Alone.

Again, thanks for your kindness.


Your posts are always very interesting. Happy Thanksday to you!

Norman always seemed to be on the cusp of things. His father was a blind Judge and a Buddhist. He was into the So. Cal. beach weightlifting scene in its infancy and surfing as well, not to mention meditation and Hinduism...all of this in the 40's when hardly any was viewed with an open mind. Granted it was California, but still the guy didn't let public opinion sway him from what he wanted to do. Very interesting man.

Now, in the year 2003 - especially in the Mid-west as you know - things are still stifling. To this day very few people truly believe in UFO's...that earth is the ONLY planet inhabited by souls etc., etc.

I would be glad to send you my copy of The Christ Consciousness if you are interested. There is a newer edition out that I'd like to pick up anyhow, so I'd have no use for it. If interested just let me know in my inbox.

The book is very unique...at times it seems far fetched but yet not. Like I said I approached it with as open mind as possible....as life itself can be stranger than any well thought out science fiction story.

I'll be the first to admit that I can be very naive, AND a big conspiracy theory kind of guy, but something about his story seems very sincere...very honest...like Nagchampa2 said:

"whether he has delusions or hallucinations doesn't really matter. that he loves God matters"

One also gets a different take on SRF and Yogananda too. There are tons of footnotes leading to other interesting works such as Zecharia Sitchin etc. He shares thoughts on sacred symbols such as the Star of David and shows a common theme in nature. A bit over my head admittedly, but interesting none the less.

Thanks Again Etz. for such thoughtful posts.

Registered User
(11/27/03 7:20 pm)
Re: Norman Paulson
I think I may have created a misunderstanding concerning supernatural experience. My issue is not with the validity of such experience, and it isn't a matter of disagreeing with the utility of awe, wonder, and imagination inspired by supernatural experience.

My issue is with using that experience as a measuring stick of self-worth. Specifically in the highest SRF lessons one is not considered fully adept until they can dissolve and create their body at will, grow back a severed limb, and even create planets!!!

I just really really have a huge problem with that kind of pontification. It's inhuman, it's bs, and it's irresponsible, and it's kind of a "look what I can do and if you were as good as me you could do it too, don't you just envy me?" kind of attitude, and it stinks. (Don't be shy ugi, tell them how you really feel,). :rollin :rollin

Registered User
(11/28/03 5:37 am)
Re: Norman Paulson
Ugi....now I'm despondent. You mean I won't be able to occupy two bodies at once??? You do know I'm a vegetarian that practices Hong Sau daily? (except on holidays when I stuff myself with turkey flesh....oooppss!) :o Hope that doesn't get on my record!:lol

All this time we were mixing apples and oranges - thanks for clearing the subject...I very much agree....thanks.

Registered User
(11/28/03 10:42 am)
Re: Norman Paulson, contentment, ahimsa
Ugizralrite, you wrote:

"the highest SRF lessons
one is not considered fully adept until they can dissolve and create their body at will, grow back a severed limb,
and even create planets!!!"

I've actually seen someone using this on his web page in the midst of tearing down the validity of another persons path and Guru. Lot's of statements like '...but my Guru (meaning PY) is a true Guru...' to grossly paraphrase. I thought it was incredibly arrogant and low level. He was attempting to teach the guy how to make a better "judgement" in the future, based on whether a person can regrow a severed limb or not blink for hours, or ever, if I understood him correctly. Considering that Rajneesh, if you've ever seen one of his interviews back in the 80's, didn't blink (my religion hating friend was very impressed by that one) and, though I don't know all the details, was decidedly corrupt. Also, PY himself could not even walk towards the end of his life. There some incongruity here...regrowing severed limbs, not being able to walk...your mind is as good as mine...

As far as Paulson is concerned, I just got really fed up with the whole UFO thing. I think Paulson's into it to a fault, and he's a bit of an astral junky, but from what I've learned through my teachers, the 'alien' issue appears to be very much wrapped in the worlds of souls who are living in the Astral plane. Some may even have the ability to return or be born here in the physical plane for a purpose. That could be positive or negative, depending. Lights in the sky may actually be attempts to create vibrational changes in this plane. I consider Paulson to be a highly developed spiritual naif, like all of us have a mixture of lesser and higher development within us. One of the things I can't help thinking about, concerning him, is the possibility that in an earlier life, whoever he was then tried to progress too quickly - before his soul could process the changes taking place. On the other hand, I think he's honest and sincere and able to look at his faults, unlike many other people.

My motherly nature causes me to worry a bit about people on the Kriya path for that very reason. As you have pointed out, enlightenment is not about measurement and to add to that, it's also not a race. Sometimes more damage can be caused by trying to go too fast than by finding contentment with steady, even, well-rounded progress. It may be slower, but the practices themselves are only tools that should accompany a well rounded program of overall development. You can endlessly repeat that love is the highest goal but if your life doesn't reflect that, then something is wrong.

With PY's health issues at the end of his life: the thought strikes me that he tried to do too much. Noble, but still, as a teacher, it would seem a lesson he needed to learn - when to stop. This is one of Shelley's criticisms of him. I totally believe that he was concentrating his energy on 'being in the bodies of his disciples', and I've experienced this happening as part of 'what a Guru does', but when he started to lose the functioning of his own body and experience great pain, what was that saying to him? I almost feel like he was not practicing ahimsa. There's a practice in Kashmir of people holding their arms over their heads, ceaselessly, for 10, 15 years. Never taking it down. The arm withers and the pain must be excruciating. It's supposed to give siddhis. I get the same feeling that this is also not practicing ahimsa. So what about the damn siddhis, and in Yogananda's case, at the point where you are damaging yourself, so what about saving the world, or SRF, which, as we know was not exactly saved by his martyrdom. If it was individual disciples, I wouldn't want to be responsible for giving my Guru such pain. Martyrdom is not something I appreciate, I guess, or see real value in.

Edited by: etzchaim at: 11/28/03 10:50 am
Registered User
(11/28/03 2:37 pm)
Re: Norman Paulson, contentment, ahimsa
What a relief to get support on my objection about measuring up to supernatural claims. When you challenge an authority that claims the ability to create planets it is unnerving. Similarly it is healthy to express doubt about turning the final illness of a guru into something that denies their human frailty or lack of judgment.

Last year on Walrus there was a comment on the future of SRF, and that there will always be a core of true believers to move things along. I am glad for them and their ability to be comfortable in their faith. But it is also a good thing that Walrus is now in existence as a place of refuge, communication, and questioning.

What got me through last night and my fears of retribution was the assurance that if someone thinks they are creating a planet as some kind of superior entity then their delusion
is a confusion about just what it is that actually creates everything.

Registered User
(12/1/03 12:49 pm)
Re: Norman Paulson, contentment, ahimsa
ugizralrite, you have mail.

NeedtheStar, you too have mail.

Edited by: etzchaim at: 12/1/03 1:10 pm
Registered User
(7/11/05 3:11 am)
Re: Jnananandaji and Atmanandaji
Hi Borg,
I'm a Italian Kriyaban and I have read your message on Swami Janananda's autobiography

I'd be interested in reading the Swami's autobiography. I can't seem to get this ezboard private mail function to work so I'll give you an email address for me:


Thanks in advance for your kindness,

(sorry for my bad english language)

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