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        > Is Karma Just the Opiate for the Ordinary Devotee?		 New Topic    Add Reply

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NewBoy
Unregistered User
(2/21/02 1:17 pm)
Reply 		Is Karma Just the Opiate for the Ordinary Devotee?
Ever since I began reading this board, and long before really, I've often wondered how people in positions of spiritual authority and power defend some of their nastier behavior. Where is the law and / or fear of karma in all this drama? An implicit belief in karma dominates all eastern religions, but scandalous behavior from teachers and their closest disciples of every denomination fly in the face of this core belief. If the so-called "bad ladies" truly feel that they are right and following Master's will, then obviously this question is moot for them. What about all the bad behavior of the people under them? Do they also feel they are just following their understanding of Master's will? So many people in ashrams, monasteries, and retreat centers worldwide engage in the craziest behavior, but no one questions the "effects" this behaviour might have for them down the road. Kriyananda once quoted Master as saying, "People are so skillful in their ignorance!" Perhaps that observation answers my question. Still, I'd like some feedback on this subject.

Any feedback on my previous post regarding advanced meditation states and the yamas and niyamas -- See the post "see the spiritual eye and hearing AUM" would also be appreciated. Whenever I have broached these subjects with other devotees in person, I have only received blank looks.

chrisparis
Registered User
(2/21/02 2:49 pm)
Reply 		I Have an Answer...
... and it's SO SIMPLE. They act that way because they don't really believe any of this stuff.
What's behind that is alot more complicated, and I'm still trying to work it out. I saw quite alot of the kind of contradictory behavior you ask about in other spiritual organizations, both eastern and western in approach.
One reason is that these people have essentially "converted" to, well, whatever: SRF, Rosicrucianism, Theosophy, Christianity, you name it. Conversion springs from DOUBT in what one is converting from, and, in order to achieve security in what one has converted TO, the convert's ego, subconscious mind, etc., will fight to maintain the orthodoxy of the new "thing", whatever it may be. This then gets projected outward to create, for the convert, the illusion that they are truly devoted to (insert icon here), and are fighting to maintain the purity of the tradition which they have just latched onto. Have you noticed, by the way, how similar the atmosphere surrounding the SRF's governing hierarchy is to the Roman Catholic Church? They are really very similar in nature.
The other reason some of these people don't believe in this stuff (karma, self-realization, etc.) is that the REALLY don't believe in it. Here we are talking about the Bahgavan Sri Rajneesh types o the world. To them the Guru business really is a business, and their place in that world is to make a living.
Either way, if you really believe in karma, and by this phrase I mean; if you are truly convinced that this is the way things work, not just intellectually, but deeply; then you simply CAN'T act in such a way as to pillage the pocketbooks and bodies and self-respect of those who have placed their spiritual welfare in your hands. But if you aren't convinced of this, then there are many, many ways around it (karma I mean). "Oh, I'm just defending Master". "Oh, I'm just protecting Master's work". "Oh, I'm just defending the organization Master founded. This particular instance may be wrong, but the ORGANIZATION does so much good that the greater good will be better served by this minor wrong". All wiggle room.
But look at it this way. Corporate entities don't have consciences. They don't have souls. Only people do, individual people. So when individuals place there consciences at the service of SRF Inc., a distortion takes place, even if they are well meaning. Now that the organization haas become the dominant force, those individuals who actually stand up and try to do the right thing get shipped off somewhere, or retired, or they quit, they leave.
Very sad.

username
Registered User
(2/21/02 6:35 pm)
Reply 		Re: I Have an Answer...


Point one - unless one really believed everything in the first religion (rather than just being born into it) then does one really convert ?

Point two - Or do corporations have a collective conscious made up of the souls of its employees (or higher management)?

KS
Registered User
(2/22/02 7:20 am)
Reply 		The One Ring
Don’t under estimate our ability to fool ourselves into thinking we are doing good and right. The bad ladies certainly came to SRF with the idea of searching for God. Master was very much a draw too and made it easy for them when he was in the body. After he left they were very confused, very fearful, and reacted to it in disappointing ways. They probably do believe in karma, but don’t think about it much and feel there are valid excuses for the things they do and let happen.

Originally, out of fear, they did one bad thing. That is how it started. The dark side takes advantage of our weaknesses and so pushed them to difficult decisions where they made the wrong choice over and over and over, digging themselves deeper and deeper into a hole. Due to their unlimited power inside SRF, and no review of their actions, they got away with everything they did. People who complained were disloyal and had to leave, or they pushed them out to other ashrams. They eventually started liking the power and authority and mixed up keeping that power with keeping the work safe. It all gets twisted what we see is the result. Members are the enemy to be lied to and taken advantage of, and monastics are to be controlled and watched to make sure they are loyal.

There was an interesting post a month or so ago about how it is much like the effect of the “one ring” in the Lord of the Rings. The more you are drawn down the dark path the more you slide until you can’t recognize the light anymore.

Brother Vishwananda is slipping down that slope as we speak. In the interest of loyalty and duty, he is being forced to bend and make choices. He is doubting his own conscience and appears to be giving in to the tremendous power of the dark side. Let’s watch that one and see how it turns out.

SRF failures
Unregistered User
(2/22/02 7:55 am)
Reply 		They dropped the ball in India
I agree the bad ladies have made a string of bad decisions from the beginning. Way too many. One of their worst was that they dropped the ball in India and failed to develop the organization properly thanks to a chain of bad management decisions, installing the wrong people, not understanding their mission correctly, etc. As a result, SRF/YSS in India is hardly more than a joke. It could have become one of the premier religious societies of India, well-spread all over the land, with Yogananda's name placed high, on par with that of Vivekananda. Instead, hardly any Indians know Yogananda or SRF/YSS, while even the illiterate ones know about Vivekananda and Ramakrishna. The bad ladies really, reeeaaally dropped the ball on this one.

chrisparis
Registered User
(2/22/02 7:59 am)
Reply 		Conversion
I used the term "conversion" slightly loosely in my first post. In a "positive" sense, conversion is a process of turning toward God that happens psychically and spiritually to a person and is an action of Grace on the convert. Note that I don't mean "psychically" in the sense it is usually used today to relate to E.S.P., astral projection, and the like Furthmore that I mean "positive" in the sense that a constructive action is occuring. In the negative sense, and this is the meaning I was getting at in my post, conversion is a rejection of something, with an attendent turning to something else to fill the void the first thing left. In this sense we see chrisitians rejecting christianity to become hindus or pgans or, God help us, kriya yogis. We see Atheist/materialists rejecting the materialist culture to become fundamentalist christians. The list goes on.
One definitely doesn't have to accept everything about the first religion in order to convert from it. And, one definitely doesn't have to UNDERSTAND the first religion in order to convert from it. In fact, if there is truth at the core of all religions, then conversion is usually a sign of LACK of understanding.
And, yes I certainly think that groups form group consciousnesses. However that ISN'T the same thing as a CONSCIENCE. Consciousness doesn't equal conscience. Just ask anybody who works around sociopaths. Corporations don't have consciences. Lynch mobs don't have consciences, but they certainly have consciousnesses of their own.
As I get older, I start to think that, for most of us, conscience is something we have to consciously create, or at least nurture. Maybe we come with them and they're active in us as children, but Boy do we get an opportunity to grind them out as we get older.
Please forgive the rambling disquisition, but I've spent alot of time thinking these things over.

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