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kaivalyanandam
Registered User
(1/13/03 4:54 pm)
Reply 		Are the teachings the same to monastics and lay members?

This question is very strong in my mind now. Yoganandaji had received at least three Kriya Initiations, and always by the Traditional system. There are diferences in the systems, known by all.
Which initiations had received his first disciples as Dr. Lewis and others?
Sometimes I figure out that the monastics, or at least some of them receive a deeper training than lay members. This cannot be proved but can be concluded, when start to read carefully AY and other books.
His brother Sananta writes that he received 2nd Kriya in India, which means the practice of Kechari Mudra.
This is very serious, considering that Kriya is a exact science.

astral7
Registered User
(2/9/03 9:27 pm)
Reply 		Re: Are the teachings the same to monastics and lay members?
On what do you base your assumption that the 2nd Kriya is
Kechari Mudra?
From Yogananda's teaching 2nd Kriya is very different.

There may be good reasons why Yogananda did not teach KM to the devotees outside of the ashram.
And is it even necessary? Master did not think so.
This chasing after every new or different technique may not add to ones progress. We have enough to do for a lifetime.

On the same note, devotees should be wary of all those who are claiming to have the "real kriya", of the "complete kriya."

Kriya may be an exact science, but is may also be so all encompassing that even a parts of it will accomplish a great deal. Only a master would really know how much is really necessary. Even more than one road leads in the same direction, the point is to know the right direction!

There are some teachers that are teaching it backwards to Yogananda, anything to get attention!
When someone asks you, how does one know which way works? Simply look at the results That Yogananda has gotten in his own lineage of Self-Realization Fellowship great ones.

With monks you have more personal supervision and commitment, but they will generally get the same teachings as other devotees, and plus a bit more intensity.

When monks came to PY for training the first thing they were given were the Self-Realization Fellowship Lessons which he tells all devotees of Babaji's Kriya to take. This is a great home study course for meditation and mystical/spiritual development for those who can work on their own.

R & R astral.7

Edited by: astral7 at: 2/9/03 9:44:49 pm
Lobo
Registered User
(2/9/03 11:37 pm)
Reply 		Re: Are the teachings the same to monastics and lay members?
Astral,

Beside the strident and quite huffy tone that you've taken to this person's genuine wonder I want to comment on another part of your response.


"When someone asks you, how does one know which way works? Simply look at the results T(sic)HAT Yogananda has gotten in his own lineage of Self Realization great ones."

I'm puzzled. Rajasi told all disciples and devotees that PY was the last in his line of gurus. It seems, from the above statement that you believe that there is something called the Self Realization lineage, that is, those disciples who were left behind upon his demise.

I don't know about you, but I'm sticking with Rajasi.

P.S.

PY did teach kechari mudra. It is in the lessons, although not emphasized. Personally I don't practice it, but there are other kriya yogi's who believe it wrong to not practice kriya without practicing kechari (a most difficult mudra which usually takes a very long time and effort to even approach perfection), and who believe that the Maharaji Babaji taught kechari mudra to Lahiri Mahasayaji who then taught kriya to his disciples which included kechari mudra as part of the pranayama.

kaivalyanandam1
Registered User
(2/24/03 5:33 am)
Reply 		Re: Are the teachings the same to monastics and lay members?
Dears Astral and Lobo,

Sorry for the delay in answer, but there are a few points(Astral) in your remarks that I would like to comment.
1. I didn't write that 2nd Kriya is Kechari Mudra. In the traditional system one of the conditions to receive the 2nd initiation is to be able to perform Kechari Mudra.
In the SRF 2nd Kriya initiation is a strong mention to the practice of Kechari Mudra, without quoting the name Kechari Mudra, and also in Mejda.
I used to imagine how Swami Pranabananda could had entered mahasamadhi practicing SRF 2nd Kriya. After searching the answer came easily. The Traditional 2nd Kriya is not the same SRF Kriya.
The same with the number of Kriyas. How practice the 1728 Kriyas or the 20736 Kriyas. How long would it take?.
Once more it was easy to understand.One (1) Traditional 2nd Kriya is equal to 12 first Kriyas.
12 4TH traditional Kriyas are equal to: 12*12*12*12=20736 first Kriyas, or 12 3rd Kriyas are equal to 1728 Kriyas, the samadhi number as quoted by PY in the Gita.
There are many other technical details as the daily number limited by SRF in 108 kriyas, etc.
Which are the monastics really prepared to give this kind of counseling? I live in Brazil. Do you how long does it take to receive an answer by letter? Once I sent a report and one of the counsels was if I had time I could practice Kechari Mudra for ten minutes. Can you imagine the meaning of ten minutes of correct practice of KM. The person didn't now what was talking about.
The other point Lobo was puzzled about. Aren't we from the same SRF lineage, or only blessed monastics are considered belonging to this holy lineage?
We cannot forget that PY used to say that Kriya Yoga was the airplane route to God, and he used to say that he teaches the "Lahiri Mahasaya Kriya Yoga", and this means a lot of details that are being abandoned by SRF.
I can understand that many simplifications have to be made to make the practice simpler to begginers. But when you start to demand for more intensity, the organization should be prepared to fullfill the necessities of his members.
There are many others aspects that could be discussed, but this is an unlimited discussion, but the only point that I do not agree with you is that to be instructed by monastics does not mean that I'm being instructed by a Guru, even being a SRF monastics.
The same with the lessons. In reality which are the true PY terachings. Even Praecepta were not written exclusively by PY.
I guess that when PY arrived in the 20's in Boston, to his first disciples PY had taught the Traditional Kriya that he receive in India. Maybe after that PY could had made some simplifications, but for sure the oral tradition is alive somewhere, and this is the real Kriya.

Edited by: kaivalyanandam1 at: 2/24/03 5:35:59 am
stermejo
Registered User
(3/9/03 12:59 pm)
Reply 		Re: Are the teachings the same to monastics and lay members?
WOW! Exact Science. Man, get THAT out of your head. Forget the "science" designation. Pure marketing for the "nukular age."

Just DO the technique. You want intensity? Increase your practice. All the rest of the chicanery, Kechari mudra, 2nd, 3rd, 4th kriya, is just to hold your interest. You sound plenty interested in the technique. So do it already.

Happy samadhi, bubba!
____________________

How do we ever know for certian what is ego and what is soul? The distinction is a favorite tool of moral bullies. -Michael Murphy, "Kingdom of Shivas Irons"

MastersChela
Registered User
(3/10/03 3:12 pm)
Reply 		Re: Are the teachings the same to monastics and lay members?
I think that this is a VERY important question that needs to be addressed. One of the things that drew me to this path was the idea that being a householder was a legitimate spiritual path, that we had Lahiri Mahasaya as our model Yogi. While Master was a Monastic, we have both Lahiri, who maintained his householder status throughout his life, working during the day and taking disciples in the evenings, and Sri Yukeshwar, who lived a householder life before becoming a monastic. He also kept all his property and simply convered them into ashrams, he also kept track of all his expenses and finances himself, thoroughout his life, a very "householder" approach to monasticism.

Personally, before finding Master and realizing he was my Guru, I was actively involved in a Theravada Buddhist orgainzation for about a year and a half. I had been in a committed relationship with my then girlfriend for over 5 years, and we were planning on getting married when I began visiting the Monastery on a regular basis. At a certain point, I reached an impass. I felt like there was somthing here that I needed, and deeply considered abandoning my currenly life to move to Thailand and study the teachings as a monk. My girlfriend was sad, but understanding, and told me before I even expressed my feelings about it to her that if this was what I needed to do, that she would let me go with love.

After much meditation and thought, I decided to get married as we'd planned. After that, I felt like I'd crossed some threshold, and that now I was no longer "elegeble" for the deeper teachings of this path, that I wouldn't be shown the deepest meidtation techniques because I wasn't a monk. After I got married, I never went back there again. It was a few months after this that I read the AY and found a path where I COULD be a householder and still get the teachings, still reach Self-Realization. Even if we householders aren't being given "lesser" teachings, I still sense from what is written here on Walrus and in other places, that there's a sense among the monastics of superiority. That's not what our guru taught AT ALL, and it's not the legacy of this line of Masters. If there is a reluctance to give higher Kriyas to lay members, this is VERY MUCH in opposition to the Kriya Tradition and should be noted as such.

prssmd
Registered User
(7/28/03 1:06 am)
Reply 		Re:Lahiri's techniques?
It is claimed that Yogananda changed the original technique that Sri Yukteswar taught him. I've heard that this claim is supported by Lahiri Mahasaya's diaries that have been translated by Dr. Ashok Kumar Chatterjee, Purusha Purana. Does anyone know where I could get a copy of these diaries?

username
Registered User
(7/28/03 5:42 am)
Reply 		Re: Re:Lahiri's techniques?
The guy has a website. The books are expensive. I knew people who bought the book - but never heard anything about it after the got it. This led me to believe that it wasn't that great a book.(I think it is Shibendu that has Lahiri's diaries.)

Anyway I have printed out website, so if you can't find it in a web search, and no one else knows the site address, I can look through my stuff and find a address and telephone number for you.

Ringbearer7
Registered User
(7/28/03 9:30 pm)
Reply 		Re: Re:Lahiri's techniques?
It is certainly true that Yoganandaji modified Kriya. My opinion is that he was qualified to do so.

Chatterjee's book is ok - not great. This is not a direct translation of the Lahiri Mahasaya's diaries. It is more like very brief excerpts from his diaries along with lots of commentary and interpretations from Chatterjee. All in all I was disappointed but there a few good things there.

etzchaim
Registered User
(7/29/03 10:47 am)
Reply 		Re: Re:Lahiri's techniques?
I've received Kriya with Yogananda's modifications and Kriya without these modifications. The changes Yogananda made are not very large and the use of the sounds is helpful in understanding how the throat should be shaped, etc. I seriously doubt there is a difference in the effect of the Kriya because of these changes. Things that can cause problems are more likely to be rigidity and stiffness (both physical and mental), thinking patterns that tear down the self esteem or build it up falsely (same difference), attachment to dissipating patterns of thinking or emotions and fatigue.

Etz

Durgaprasad
Registered User
(8/8/03 7:46 pm)
Reply 		Re: Re:Lahiri's techniques?
PY did change the techniques, to what extent I dont know, Satya Charan Lahiri, Lahiri Mahasays grandson told me in 1977. He made it quite clear
that he was not happy about this. However PY must have had good reasons for doing so, India and America are quite different worlds, different planets almost and some modification was probably necessary.
Also I would assume that PY discussed this with Sri Yukteshwar and got
his approval.
Dont worry too much about it.

Edited by: Durgaprasad at: 8/9/03 11:42 am
etzchaim
Registered User
(8/11/03 7:40 am)
Reply 		Re: Lahiri's techniques?
I've been told that Yogananda also had Babajis blessings for adapting the Kriya for American/Western people.

I received the Kriya that Satya Charan Lahiri is giving. There are not serious differences between the two ways of teaching/performing the technique. The effect is the same. I've also received it as a technique from Kabbalah, which has it's own system of transmuting the energy (including sounds, visual shapes, colors and head/body movement). This is a very old and most likely universal, technique. I think we do ourselves a disfavor by fearing and worrying so much. If all a person is doing is the technique, and the rest of their life is a mess, they are mean, not centering themselves and unaware of their projecting, no matter how much Kriya they breathe, they will run into problems. Many people have become enlightened by doing very simple meditations, prayer, study and songs, the techniques we use may be more powerful, but they are only techniques and there may be more than one 'true' way to do them without making a change in the effects they have.

Durgaprasad, it's good to have you here. You bring in a good balance to the mix.

Etz

Edited by: etzchaim at: 8/11/03 7:44 am
prssmd
Registered User
(8/16/03 4:16 am)
Reply 		Kabbalah
Where'd you find these techniques in the Kabbalah? Are they posted online?

prssmd
Registered User
(8/16/03 4:42 am)
Reply 		changes in the techniques; nationality discrimination
Durgaprasad writes that PY [Yogananda] must have had good reasons for changing the techniques: "India and America are quite different worlds, different planets almost and some modification was probably necessary." This strikes me as completely incorrect. You could modify a technique in order to improve it for an individual, but not because of some difference between Indians and Americans. National differences don't create spiritual differences. Perhaps Yogananda was deluded into thinking the contrary by racist ideologies rampant in the 1920's and 30's.

It's time to overcome racism and nationality discrimination. There was a time when it was thought that black people could never reach the same intellectual heights as whites, due to genetic inferiority, but most of us have put that delusion aside.

Unfortunately, many Indian teachers still discriminate on the basis of nationality, charging Westerners much more than Indians for the exact same teachings. It's only because we Westerners tolerate these barbaric practices that they continue. It's incorrect to assume that an American is much wealthier than an Indian, and it's wrong to charge wealthier people more than poorer people in any event. There are many upper-middle class Indians with more money than the struggling Western backpackers travelling through India hoping to learn yoga, yet these Indians are typically charged far less than the struggling Westerners, for the same classes.

The idea that wealthier people should pay more than poorer people is, in any event, a sad relic of India's socialist past. If you meet Indians educated in universities thirty years ago, you will, unfortunately, find many socialists. Socialism is a totally discredited economic theory that has been abandoned almost everywhere in the world (except perhaps in Cuba and a few other spots), but there are quite a few Socialist holdouts among middle-aged university-educated Indians--people who now teach yoga or run yoga centers in India. Socialist ideology is one of the main reasons why India is as poor as it is today. The Chinese have gotten rid of much more of their Socialism than the Indians have of theirs, and that's why the Chinese as a nation are so much wealthier than the Indians are today.

I wish we would amend the U.S. constitution so that whenever Indians, Thais, Nepalese, Burmese--and a lot of other people whose governments mistreat foreigners by forcing them to pay more than locals for all manner of services (e.g. air tickets) and tickets to tourist sites, etc.--come to America, they'll have to pay 10 times as much as Americans will in order to learn yoga, buy air tickets, enter a museum, etc. There should be a strict reciprocity rule.

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